TF.A Partner,
Emma Williamson
led a great conversation between
Danna Walker
and
Andy Fergus
, who are both passionate about increasing diversity in the architecture and construction sector and finding leverage in roles outside of traditional practice.
The interview touches on many of the topics that we regularly discuss in our studio – building inclusive environments, making impact, the transferability of an architect’s skills – and provides food for thought for those working in the in and outside the profession.
TheFulcrum.Agency are proud to be Industry Partners in a major three-year Australian Research Council project exploring work-related mental wellbeing in architecture.
Led by researchers at
Monash University
, the project will gather the most reliable and comprehensive set of data ever collected about wellbeing in the architecture profession – across Australia, covering all types and sizes of practice, and over time.
The research team is kicking off the project with a detailed survey that asks how much working in architecture has affected your wellbeing, for better or worse.
Participation is entirely voluntary, anonymous, and confidential.
Completing the survey
will take around 15 – 20 minutes – so grab a cup of tea and settle in to contribute to better understanding and greater wellbeing in architecture!
We decided we would not call ourselves a practice and instead call ourselves an agency – leaving ourselves open to be understood as built environment experts and problem solvers, but not necessarily architects.
TF.A Partner and Co-Founder, Emma Williamson, was recently guest speaker at the Association of Consulting Architecture’s Business of Design Lunch in Adelaide.
Emma’s presentation took the audience through the strategies she and co-founder Kieran Wong have used in building and rebuilding their business over the last 25 years.
If you’ve ever wondered how we got to where we are at TF.A,
this article
might provide the answers!
NAIDOC week starts today, and this year’s theme – Heal Country – feels particularly relevant to the work we do at Fulcrum.
As an agency working in the built environment, we spend a lot of time thinking about First Nations’ notions of Country. It is so radically different to the Western idea of the same word. We spotted this quote by the late ethnographer Deborah Bird on The Conversation* this morning and it helped to make sense of the difference:
Country is not a generalised or undifferentiated type of place, such as one might indicate with terms like ‘spending a day in the country’ or ‘going up the country’.Rather, Country is a living entity with a yesterday, today and tomorrow, with a consciousness, and a will toward life.
We join with all of you in celebrating the culture, wisdom and achievements of our First Nations people this NAIDOC week.
* ‘Although we didn’t produce these problems, we suffer them’: 3 ways you can help in NAIDOC’s call to Heal Country’ by Bhiamie Williamson
https://bit.ly/3wfOmEs
Architect and historian, Flora Samuel is internationally respected for her work uniting the principles of social impact with the built environment. We practically leapt for joy when she agreed to share her thoughts on ‘building back better’ in a post-COVID world.
As the UK government struggles with the second wave of Coronavirus local and city authorities are developing plans for recovery. These are set to dominate the agenda for several years and practices are starting to shed staff while second guessing how to position themselves for the new situation. Plans and strategies to address Climate Change, inequality and good growth will now have to be looked at through the lens of COVID 19. During this time, we have also experienced remarkable, hopeful stories that speak of an emergent paradigm of collaboration, care and social value. It is really important to keep these fresh in our memories as we co-create the new normal.
Without wishing to descend into hyperbolae it feels like we really are on a knife edge between ‘
building back better
’ and a future too grim to contemplate. As part of a larger
project
by the UK Collaborative Centre for Housing Evidence on the impact of
COVID
, I’ve been interviewing policy makers, local authorities, providers of social housing, charities and developers to find out what they believe will be the key issues and opportunities for homes and neighbourhoods going forward. The report can be read
here
but I’ve summarised a few points below:
The pandemic offers an opportunity to build back better both for resilience and to address the Climate Change Emergency which has not been forgotten.
Planning policy and local authorities that focuses on wellbeing and placemaking are more resilient to events such as the pandemic. Similarly, organisations with flexible working arrangements with staff that regularly work from home have been more resilient.
Resilience starts with the home, its design and its context. Flexible space is needed in all homes as they increasingly become places of work. All homes should have access to balconies, daylight and broadband.
There is need for a statutory requirement to mandate adequate levels of green and amenity space based on metrics.
Community spaces need to be protected and enhanced. They play a major role in volunteering efforts and in reducing social isolation. These could be expanded to include a healthcare role (for example for the homeless).
The pandemic offers an opportunity to rethink density and the way people move around their neighbourhoods. Travel and health need to be seen as an integrated agenda.
The centralisation of services needs to be reconsidered, with better dispersion of jobs across the UK, including rural areas, facilitated by digital communication.
The use of local services and materials needs to be encouraged at every level, especially public procurement and in the choreography of our high streets. This includes local construction companies who need support and investment (including the development of safer off-site construction) as they are best positioned to deliver new homes to their communities.
New administrative groupings are needed in government and local authorities to ensure a joined up strategy across the health, social care and planning agendas.
Advanced budgetary planning is needed for emergencies enabling national governments and local authorities to act responsibly and efficiently without concerns about who will pay. After years of austerity there is not enough fat in the system to cover such emergencies.
Changes to the planning system to accelerate economic growth have been shown not to work. Planning is too important to be done hastily. Given the likelihood of a recession great care needs to be taken with the use of scant resources.
It is worth noting that each of the countries in the UK has a very different planning system. Over the last few years Wales has been busy putting together ‘place based’ policy that puts the ‘Wellbeing of Future Generations’ at its core. Community resilience is so central to Welsh Government thinking that their documents keep their relevance even in the current pandemic situation. In contrast to this the English government is, as a knee jerk reaction, consulting on streamlining the planning system to kick start economic growth. Yet many of the people I interviewed observed that this had been tried after the financial crash of 2008 and hadn’t worked. Planning is way too important to be done in haste although as Hal Pawson at the University of New South Wales has observed, if the Australian government wants to stimulate the economy this should be done through accelerating the delivery of
social and affordable housing
. Unfortunately it seems like the national government is looking to the private sector to do the investing
I’ve also been bringing together some of the research, stories and initiatives that have taken place during the pandemic in terms of the built environment, in particular housing and neighbourhoods. So much fascinating ephemera has emerged which may feel like a distant memory very soon. Clever practices are capturing the positive impact of their architecture during this time, see for example Stride Treglown’s interviews with residents at
Paintworks
Bristol. Others are undertaking Post Occupation Evaluation (POE) housing projects to develop evidence of the benefits of good design for residents during the pandemic.
The Social Value Toolkit for Architecture, published in July by the RIBA, offers a set of useful post occupancy evaluation (POE) questions for architects who want to chart the social value of their projects. The SVT is being further tested by developers such as TOWN on their CoHousing scheme Marmalade Lane in Cambridge and by researchers such as Mhairi McVicar at Cardiff University who is using it to chart the impact of the Grangetown Pavilion, a community hub developed in close collaboration with locals. It is going to be interesting when we start to gather comparators. In Australia, I am developing a funding bid with colleagues at the University of South Australia to develop a version building on the
Social Impact Measurement Australia
and the Australian Social Value Bank which focuses on the and not on the wellbeing, and other, contributions of the built environment rather than the current focus on the delivery of services.
Crucially we need solutions that can connect what communities want with ‘the designer’s pen’.
POE
is so important, not only for practice learning, but also to be able to use evidence from past projects when pitching for work. It can also be used in the development of research specialisms –there is likely to be quite a bit of funding coming through for research on the impact of COVID for some time. Our recently published special edition of
Architectural Design
on Social Value in Architecture offers a range of methods for capturing social value as well as a critique (see for example Taylor and Hinds Krakani Lumi project in Tasmania).
How homes might change has been subject to much speculation. See for example Kirsty Volz’s observations on open plan living on the
Parlour
website.
‘There are lots of ideas about the future, but as usual less evidence’ writes Dinah Bornat of ZCD Architects who has initiated a
Mass Observation
project asking people to capture the view from their windows during lock down. Another example of a practice based survey, this time on the impacts of
home
working, is by Ben Channon at Assael Architecture. Not only are these practices gathering really important data, they are rightfully consolidating their place as research leaders in the field.
It is possible to upload your own examples of the way in which the built environment has been adapted for COVID 19 on the
Tactical Space
website. This is interesting because it seems to be a collaboration between built environment professionals and digital designers. I am very pleased to see a lot more evidence of architects working with web and App designers as the creation of online tools and services has to be central to architects ‘earning while sleeping’ in the future.
Others have focused in on the way in which the profession itself has been adapting to its new circumstances. In response to a barrage of questions from architectural clients on how best to work at a distance PropTech startup Weaver, has undertaken a
survey
of 190 UK architects on the ‘remote studio’ and has revealed that ‘hyper-accelerated digital transformation is leading to unexpected design innovations, cost efficiencies, and more collaborative relationships with clients’.
Crucially we need solutions that can connect what communities want with ‘the designer’s pen’, a kind of on-going, non-stop community feedback loop. This is our aspiration with the research project Community Consultation for Quality of Life (currently under consideration by funders). Digital mapping is also at the heart of our collaboration with Stantec on the
Building Better Places Toolkit
that seeks to build social value into the world of land acquisition, the origin of most of the problems with the built environment, in my experience.
Extracted from ‘The Food Resources of the Aborigines of the South-West of Western Australia’, a comprehensive overview by Sara Meagher written in 1975, these words remind us how lucky we are to have shifted from a position of observation to one of participation as our understanding of First Nations culture and culinary practice has grown. Natural Ingredients was first published in Leverage, Issue 02 of our journal.
Knight (1886) states that before it was cooked, the thigh bones of the possum were invariably bent back and broken, ‘this being a superstitious observance which is never neglected.’
Possums, like most of the other smaller animals, were cooked whole. They were roasted on hot coals, or were covered with hot ashes. Before being cooked, however, the intestines were taken out, and the fur plucked off and stuffed into the stomach which was then pinned together with a stick. When the possum was cooked the fur, which had been stuffed into it, was removed and sucked to obtain the juices it had soaked up.
Birds’ eggs were taken and eaten, Nine (1831) says that: ‘at the spring time of the year, they live principally upon the eggs and young of birds, chiefly of the parrot tribe, but also of hawks, ducks, swans, pigeons, etc’.
Photo: Wagner Souza e Silva
When eggs were cooked they were placed on end in moderately hot ashes. A small hole was pierced in the upper end to prevent them from bursting.
The black swan (Cygnus atratus) is abundant in the South-West and is particularly common in inlets and estuaries such as Peel Inlet, Leschenault Estuary, Augusta, Wilson Inlet, Pallinup, and Bremer Bay estuary where large flocks occur. It was easily taken by the Aborigines when it was moulting, and large numbers of both young and old birds were also taken when it was nesting.
According to my informant Doust, water fowl were cooked by first being covered with mud, placed in a hole, and then covered with ashes, where they were left for several hours. When the baked mud was cracked open the feathers came away in the mud leaving the body clean. Chauncy (1878) noted that this method of cooking large birds was also used in other parts of Australia.
Grey (1841) described how water fowl in general were either speared or caught with a noose, but, apart from the black swan, there are no references to species by name.
Hammond (1933) however, says that large birds were always cut up before being cooked. Grey (1841) says that birds were plucked before being cooked but Hammond says that the feathers were wetted and then burnt off.
Paul foraging in the Mary Aiken in the Fitzroy Crossing region.
Fervor describe themselves as a ‘culinary experience’, committed to raising the profile of native ingredients whilst building community and cultural knowledge in WA’s regions. Founder, Paul Iskov, takes us on a photographic journey trough their exquisite and unique dining experiences.
After travelling across the world working in some of the world’s best restaurants, many of whom were using produce native to their regions, I started wondering why there wasn’t more Australian produce used in restaurants here. Surely there had to be something other than lemon myrtle and pepperberry. I returned home at the end of 2012, inspired. I found many ingredients that I’d never heard of or tasted. More importantly, I discovered this incredible culture that goes hand-in-hand with the food.
One of our good friends, Neville Poelina and his daughter Angelina sitting down for dinner after taking us foraging ro collect produce around Broome.
In March 2013, our very first event was held, and Fervor was established as a roaming restaurant to explore, learn and share what we have discovered with others. Some guests travel from afar and some guests are from five minutes down the road. Foodies, farmers and families are all part of the diverse group that join us at each dinner.
When we first started out, we had an old Tritan ute, which we were told wouldn’t go very far. It kept going for years, even after we upgraded it! Today we have Trev the Truck who takes us where we need to be.
Paul’s Macadamia with Youlk
Prep/Cook
40 mins
Serves
4 as a starter
Ingredients
400g macadamia nuts
250ml filtered water
1 tsp lemon myrtle oil
1 small youlk* or white radish
500ml grape seed or vegetable oil for frying
2 bunches sea celery (or parsley)
4 tsp lemon myrtle emulsion
Youlk, also known as Ravensthorpe radish, is an edible bushfood root. Naturally occurring, you can find it growing across Ravensthorpe, Newdegate and Jerramumgup in Western Australia.
Method
1 Preheat oven to 180C
2 Chop 50g of the macadamia nuts and roast in the oven at 180C for 6-8 minutes or until just golden brown. Set aside.
3 In a food processor, pulse 200g of the macadamia nuts until they’re the consistency of couscous. Don’t over puree or the nuts will turn to paste. Set aside.
4 Using a jug blender, process 120g of the macadamia nuts with the water for 2 minutes to form a macadamia nut milk.
5 Strain macadamia nut milk through muslin cloth or into a bowl or pot. Add the lemon myrtle oil. Set aside.
6 On a mandolin, carefully shave the remaining macadamia nuts into paper thin slices. Set aside.
7 Shave youlk into paper thin slices on a mandolin and set aside.
8 In a medium pot, heat oil to 200C.
9 Cut celery into 10cm long stalks and fry. Remember to stand back or cover the pot – oil will spit when sea celery goes into the pot because of the water content. Once it has stopped bubbling, remove from oil and place on paper towel to drain.
To serve: Place 1 tsp of lemon myrtle emulsion onto each plate. Cover with a quarter of the macadamia nut couscous. Add 1tbsp of roasted macadamia nuts. Now add the shaved youlk and shaved macadamia nuts. Place sea celery stalks on top.
We wish we’d been in Sydney to experience Rebecca Baumann’s immersive exhibition ‘Radiant Flux’ in the flesh, but these images go along way in capturing the transformative nature of the work. In a short essay, Rebecca reflects on her installation at Carriageworks in relation to the overarching theme of Leverage.
When thinking of how the word ‘leverage’ might relate to my art practice, I did the rather unimaginative thing and consulted a dictionary. The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines leverage as
the power to direct the thinking or behaviour of others usually indirectly.
This definition piqued my interest when thinking about the way I have approached making work in recent years, and in my most recent installation
Radiant Flux
.
I started working as a professional artist in 2007, and in the early years I made kinetic objects – I was interested in motion, creating works with inherent change, that would be different for each viewer. In my more recent practice I’ve expanded beyond objects, to experiential and immersive installations which consider light, space, and architecture. I’ve been thinking more about exhibition making, considering how the audience moves through an environment, and how you can affect that interaction through different spatial interventions.
‘The site becomes the performer as it shifts through the sun’s position and the colours that illuminate it.’ Emma-Kate Wilson on Radiant Flux, Hunter & Folk, 2020
In my most recent work
Radiant Flux,
I was commissioned to make a light based installation for the 100-metre foyer space at Carriageworks in Sydney. The Carriageworks were built between 1880 and 1889 as part of the Eveleigh Railway Workshops, and the site was redeveloped as a cultural precinct in 2007. The commission was a huge opportunity to work within this beautiful late-Victorian industrial building, with its ornate brickwork, steel trussing and cast iron columns.
For
Radiant Flux
I covered every glass surface of the Carriageworks exterior and skylights in dichroic film, a dynamic material that shifts colour when viewed from different angles and transmits the opposite chromatic spectrum to what it reflects. The result is an immersion into a kaleidoscopic world of colour and light that responds continuously to the environmental conditions around it. I was interested in working immaterially with light and colour as a way to affect the viewer’s relationship to the building – which still has the raw, industrial feel of its history but transforms it into a cathedral like space.
I liked to think of the building as an entity, and its fluctuating nature would aim to direct the audience to be more cognisant of the change which is happening all around them, all the time.
Ten large skylights create lightwells which move across the space throughout the day.
I was not interested in dictating how the work might be responded to per se, but when the sunlight streams down the walls and spills coloured light onto the floor in the foyer…I have felt like I have created a stage – or an invitation for the audience, who can use it as they wish.
During the time
Radiant Flux
has been open, visitors to the space have been seen dancing in the lightwells or using them as hopscotch squares for example. An encounter with
Radiant Flux
will never be the same twice. I liked to think of the building as an entity, and it’s fluctuating nature would aim to direct the audience to be more cognisant of the change which is happening all around them, all the time. To be more present in the ever-changing moment.
‘Radiant Flux’, Carriageworks, Summer, 2020
I have felt like I have created a stage – or an invitation for the audience, who can use it as they wish.
In each issue of our journal, we ask a handful of people we admire to reflect on our chosen theme. This is Pippa Hurst, Chair at DesignFreo and Senior Communications Advisor at Lindy Johnson Creative, on Leverage:
Leverage is putting weight behind something to make a change, using minimum effort for maximum effect.
For me it means asking how I can most effectively use the skills and connections I have to make a difference.
That was the impetus for
DesignFreo
. I love design, I love my town and I care about its future. How do we harness design to make the place we live better, now and for those that will come after us? I leveraged my connections to seek out like-minded local designers and creative industry professionals and we’ve come together to make design more visible and accessible. I see my role as connecting people to amplify impact.
The more people leaning on the spade, the greater the leverage. And when we all lean in together at the same time to achieve a common goal, we leverage the power of community. It’s a double-leverage.
*Completely coincidentally, I came across Donella Meadows essay
Leverage Points: Places to Intervene in a System
, which describes the most and least effective types of interventions in a system (of any kind). Enlightening – Google it!
David Cain (Executive Director, Communicare) and Kieran Wong (Partner, TheFulcrum.Agency) are old friends who don’t need much of a prompt to chat! In a conversation that oscillates between unwieldy and profound, Dave and Kieran workshop politics, the state of social services and making an impact.
Kieran:
There’s an interesting story that I heard about an architect who worked in Indigenous communities. After a while he realized that to make meaningful change he had to go into government to effect policy. He then realized he couldn’t affect the change he wanted there and went into the private sector. This way he could form an alliance with government and deliver greater change. He moved through these different structures to try and effect changeand ultimately ended up back in architecture again.
I often wonder whether I am being useful… You’ve gone through a few different steps on your journey in this space. Given your interest in politics, where do you think the most meaningful impact can be made?
David:
Well, I think there are multiple areas in which we can have impact. I do think that it stands on the individual; I think it’s really important to engage people and encourage them to think and challenge their concerns. Not just think about them but to try and connect to them. To find ways we can cascade and amplify effect.
I also think it’s about looking at the global capacity of your organization and your broader connections. How can you connect or advocate or amplify or agitate? But ultimately, it’s about having a constellation of people that work together to achieve the things we need to achieve. And, having spent six years in government as part of my journey, you help to shape policy, you have an impact and you change things.
But progressive, broad scale change in ways that are seminal, I think are sort of above and beyond all of us. I think that we need to be pushing and agitating for change in different ways and that work is incremental.
A great example for me was the last federal election and the whole range of criticisms about the position that the Labor party put together. It was complex, it was poorly managed, but it was a comprehensive suite of reforms for Australia. And it was rejected. And so, I think it shows we have to be able to bring people along.
Kieran:
I agree. I think one of the challenges is that this idea of a progressive reformist agenda might underpin a lot of things people think about when they’re in their 20s and 30s and that the edges startcoming off in their 40s.
Snakes and Ladders
David: Yeah, I read something the other day… this is an epiphany actually – sorry to cut you off – about research around the way people move through progressive to conservative views from 20 through to 50. For so many people it’s a trajectory.
Kieran:
That’s right, yeah.
David:
You can sort of see that it happens. People get comfortable in their life and the status quo suits them.
Kieran:
Yeah, they want to protect it.
David:
They protect their resources and those kinds of things.
Kieran:
Yeah, also in Australia, if you’re of a certain age like we are, which allowed us to get into the property market before it became insane, there’s a kind of meta-narrative that says, “We’ve worked really hard to get here.” discounts all of the changes in tax policy and the middle welfare handouts of the ’90s. A false sense of how what you’ve earned is created and the need to protect it
David:
It’s absolutely true. I actually think some of the nationalism that we see in Australia, some of the emerging or re-emerging of nationalist thought is around this trope. That people believe that their being born in Australia was a measure of their genius rather than a measure of their luck. And they get really belligerent around being Australian. Funny thing is, it’s just luck.
Kieran:
Yeah. I mean, just to go back to the politics thing. I think theoutcome of last election will mean that the Labor Party are going to be incredibly cautious in terms of policy reform. It’ll be a kind of bipartisan choice really in terms of policy settings with furious agreement on everything but the most minor of details.
I heard an interesting talk a few weeks ago about the Uluru Statement and the notion that bipartisanship has really not served Indigenous Australia well. Because what is meant to happen with a twin chamber of government, is that you’ve got a conservative side and a progressive side and they argue the toss over a whole range of ideas to come to a position.
As a result of kind of wedge politics, the constituencies that both sides are fighting for are blurred now. You end up pretty much with the same group of people that both parties are looking to try and get the vote from. And therefore, bipartisanship as a result of aiming for some of that nationalist idiocy also then excludes the opportunity for meaningful reconciliation.
In Australian politics we’re ending up with an inability for effect because no one will want to put forward a policy that has a kind of reformist proposition. Maybe the NDIS is the last thing that’ll ever happen in politics for a while?
David:
I was listening to a great podcast the other day, Mark Keenwas interviewing someone who had looked at the previous election. Theyhad done an in-depth analysis of the election result and their view was that progressive politics needs to be more emotive in the way in which it captures the imagination of Australian people.
She was discussing the way in which the conservative side is emotive – in terms of taking away your ute or of those kinds of thing. Whereas the progressive side presents lots of facts, lots of data.
I think that we need to think about, emotionally, what does reconciliation genuinely mean? What does fairness mean? What does equality genuinely mean? And try and bring people along that way.
Kieran
: Do you think that’s possible? I mean, this is a question that we often talk about. Does true reconciliation and empowering communities require some handing over of power by those with the power? Symbolism is not enough. The actual relinquishment of power is what’s required.
David: I think it’s really important that we have multiple views on our landscape, on our political landscape. That’s how I think we arrive the best decisions and the best people.
David (cont):
There is no doubt that the concentration of media ownership in this country is problematic. The dissenting and alternate views, they come but they’re rare. Five years ago, you’d get disparate views around different issues and so the reader would be able to read things with much more detail, get a different lens on a different set of data, different sets of facts. We’re losing that – it’s all just melding into one centre right position
Kieran:
I agree with you that there should be a tension in politics between the conservative and progressive perspectives. I wonder what the trajectory is for contemporary democracy, and the impact of that on the way in which providers of services or providers of infrastructure can plan for the future.
For me it feels like there almost needs to be a kind of devolution of one of the strands of government to allow it to occur. A kind of a beefing up of the states and a diminution of the Commonwealth.
David:
But our federated model has struck a balance where the federal government has the cash but not the service delivery infrastructure or the relationship with the community and the state government has the service delivery infrastructure and relationship with the community but not necessarily the cash. And there’s such a symbiotic relationship that just underpins our federation.
One of the things in Western Australia that’s been looked at is how we all start to tell a story about the impact that we’re having (in the community?) sector? How does government and the sector look at collective impact? Is it around outreach to young people? Around mental health? Around children, the early years?
Kieran:
I had lunch with Michelle McKenzie from Shelter the other day and she was saying this interesting thing about COVID and the opportunity that it’s brought for a greater level of compassion. Suddenly there’s all these people realizing that they’re about to interact with a (welfare) system they’ve never anticipated interacting with, and the sheer workload involved in interacting with a system that they’ve never dealt with. Maybe there’s an opportunity for empathy through this whole thing?
David:
Well, you would hope that many more people have a much crisper understanding about the impact of JobSeeker, living on $40 a day. It’s outrageous that we are comfortable with people living on $40 a day.
And to your point about this new empathy, I think part of that design thinking that is needed is how do we support what will be lots of new people that need our support but not necessarily drag them into the system? Providing the support in their community, I guess, in different ways.
Kieran:
Yeah, maybe in less confronting ways.
David:
Less confronting ways, yeah.
Kieran:
Okay, so I think that’s all pretty good. I don’t know if you want to just say something about what you think your impact … for you, what’s the kind of personal driver of why you do what you do? Beyond the kind of beach house and the …
Dave:
My personal driver, I guess is around the innate vulnerabilities of children. I really have a connection to the safety and well-being of children. I mean, the findings from the Royal Commission into Child Sexual Abuse were just breathtaking in their sadness and how we’ve failed, really failed, a whole generation of children. That drives me. And again, now through our Stewardship of the White Ribbon Australia campaign, focusing on reducing family and domestic violence as well. I think it’s a major issue that impacts so many families, impacts our community, and impacts our country.
Kieran:
Yeah. Well, they have two pretty good things to drive you. Okay. That’s great. Thanks Dave.
